Mansfield Park - from Anne

Whew! I should have sat down and posted my thoughts a lot earlier this month. (And I am so relieved that everyone struggled with this book. I thought it was just me and that I would not be allowed in the Jane Austen fan club anymore.)


Here are my thoughts....


1. Though it was very successful, Jane Austen deemed Pride and Prejudice "rather too light." Austen hoped to address more serious issues in her next novel, Mansfield Park. Many readers and critics think Mansfield Park is Austen's most serious and most profound novel. How does it differ from other Austen novels? How are her treatments of class, gender, relationships, and most especially, faith, more nuanced and more mature?




I would have to say that this is a serious novel, not as light hearted as most of her others. But, the topic that she was constantly trying to bring out is a more serious topic. I think Annette said that she felt like Jane was preaching to her while she read, and I did too.




2. Describe the social positions of the three Ward sisters: Lady Bertram, Mrs. Norris, and Mrs. Price. How did they arrive at such different circumstances and how have their circumstances presumably affect their personalities? How do the sisters treat each other and how much of this is a result of their respective status?




These ladies drove me nuts. Each one was so lacking in motherly characteristics that I had a hard time remembering that they were the adults and not Fanny. They each arrived at their various circumstances by their choice of marriage and the luxury of the money that they married into, or in Mrs. Price's case didn't marry into. I think that their personalities might have changed a little once they were married but it wouldn't surprise me if they were just as annoying as unmarried women!

3. Describe the family's feelings for Fanny as the novel develops. How does the treatment of Fanny by Mrs. Norris and the Bertram sisters distinguish her from the rest of the children? How does Fanny feel about the Bertrams and how do her feelings change?

I felt like the Bertram sisters felt that they needed a charitable project to keep their status in high society so they adopted Fanny into their home. There was no love for Fanny, she was a burden to just about everyone, or so they thought. Mrs. Norris and the Bertram sisters believed that no one could possibly be better then themselves so they treated Fanny as a servant to make sure she never achieved a greater status then themselves. I felt that Fanny was grateful and terrified to be chosen and taken away from her home, even though it wasn't a caring home. If someone had nurtured her more, taken her under their wing, I bet she would have bloomed earlier than she did in the book. She wasn't my favorite heroine of the Austen novels but she did say some things that made me chuckle. (And if I wasn't on vacation writing this right now, I would flip through my book and write down some of my favorite Fanny quotes.)

4. Mansfield Park was divided into three volumes, published separately. Why do you think Austen chose this structure, and how does it affect your reading of the book?

My edition was divided and it didn't affect the reading of my book at all. It was still hard to read!

5. From the moment the idea is suggested, Edmund is against the staging of a play. Why is the play seen as inappropriate by both Edmund and Fanny? Why, once it is decided upon, does Edmund accept a part in the play, even though he would appear a hypocrite? What is the significance of their choice of plays, Lover's Vows?

Acting was considered to be something suggestive during Fanny's time. Pretending to be a different character was seen as dangerous by those with good moral values because you could forget who you were and just pretend, and that allowed all of those young people to be flirtatious and I think that was what bothered Edmund and Fanny. I think Rebecca said that she felt Edmund was kind of "wishy washy" for the entire book and again, I agree. He wasn't firm in his decisions, he could be persuaded by others, and I have a hard time viewing him as a parson.

6. Describe the similarities and differences between the courtship of Edmund and Mary and that of Fanny and Henry. What are the stumbling blocks in these two courtships that cause them to fail? Ugh! These courtships were tedious, nothing but lies and deceits. I hated the way Mary used Edmund and that Edmund allowed it to happen. Henry drove me nuts that he "chose" to try to break Fanny's heart and then ended up in love with her, and then ran off with her cousin. Hello! He is awful!!!! The part that I was a bit annoyed by was when Fanny and Edmund finally got together we didn't get to see it through the characters eyes, we heard it from the narrator. I was happy that Fanny finally got what she wanted but felt like Jane didn't really want to include that and added it as a side note at the end when she was all done preaching.

I do want to read this book again to see if I feel differently about it. Has anyone seen the movie? Is it any good?

Advance Notice--February book

Just thought I'd put this up since I'm thinking about it. I'll take February---

Malcolm Gladwell's newest book "Outliers"

His others were really interesting (maybe for another month's reading) despite some holes in the theories. I'm curious as to how this new one stacks up.

Jennie do you want to put this in a sidebar or something--our advance reading schedule?

Mansfield Park--Rebecca

Sorry all for my late post--December got full way quicker than I anticipated!

I was suprised at how difficult it was for me to get through Mansfield Park! This was due partly to the other books I was reading at the time...more contemporary I guess. I think I would enjoy MP more during an in-depth study of Austen's works, where I was more immersed in the times. For example, it did take me a while to understand why "the play" was such a big deal, more specificallywhy it was a big "no-no." But once I had an understanding of the moral issue, it was interesting to watch everyone's reaction to it. 

I felt sorry for Fanny, but it was harder to feel close to her. I felt like there were more descriptions of other characters than of Fanny. She "grew up" so quickly in those first few chapters that I didn't get a chance to "know" her.  It's a story of a quiet character. One of the things to admire in her is her consistency. She didn't let others influence her in a bad way. She didn't bow to peer pressure! The simplest way to put it is that she is so "good." 

I read another review that made a comparison between this and P&P which I thought was interesting....Elizabeth Bennett is both "witty AND good" whereas Fanny is just "good". Mr. Darcy is "rich AND good" where Henry Crawford is just "rich."  I think this makes MP more real in a sense---the main characters are not  loaded with attributes we are all drawn to..they're pretty normal. 

What did I think about Edmund? I wanted to be annoyed with him for seeming to be flaky and falling in love with Mary Crawford. (side note: I never felt comfortable with Mary--she acted all innocent but I think she had to know what she was doing! And I was so upset with her for going out riding on Fanny's horse so that Fanny was stuck indoors!) Anyway, I can't fault Edmund too much because I did the same thing he did---OVERLOOKED Fanny. But I was glad that he finally saw who Mary really was, and that he stayed true to himself. 

So, I like all these topics in MP--there is a lot to talk about and discuss--again an in-depth study would be the way to go with this one. It just wasn't an easy one to read!! I told Jennie that I'm going to re-read one of my other Austen books this month (Persuasion) and I'll certainly continue to draw comparisons about why I enjoy some Austen books more than others.

My Favorites 2008

I liked your idea Annette!

My favorite books of 2008:

Animal, Vegetable, Miracle by Barbara Kingsolver

The True Story of Hansel and Gretel by Louise Murphy

Suck Your Stomach in and Put Some Color On by Shellie Rushing Tomlinson

The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society by Mary Ann Shaffer

The Lost Memoirs of Jane Austen by Syrie James

Swallows of Kabul by Yasmina Khadra

Bitter Sweets by Roopa Farooki

Peace Like a River by Leif Enger

The Sound of Language by Amulya Malladi

The Island by Victoria Hislop

Next Book - The House at Sugar Beach

Okay Jennie I'll have a go at the next book. I'd like to read "The House at Sugar Beach" by Helen eCooper. With the holidays and all. Shall we "meet" the last week in January? Giving us a little time to get to the book in between holiday travels and festivities?

Here is the synopsis of Sugar Beach from goodreads: Helene Cooper is "Congo," a descendant of two Liberian dynasties -- traced back to the first ship of freemen that set sail from New York in 1820 to found Monrovia. Helene grew up at Sugar Beach, a twenty-two-room mansion by the sea. Her childhood was filled with servants, flashy cars, a villa in Spain, and a farmhouse up-country.

It was also an African childhood, filled with knock foot games and hot pepper soup, heartmen and neegee. When Helene was eight, the Coopers took in a foster child -- a common custom among the Liberian elite. Eunice, a Bassa girl, suddenly became known as "Mrs. Cooper's daughter." For years the Cooper daughters -- Helene, her sister Marlene, and Eunice -- blissfully enjoyed the trappings of wealth and advantage. But Liberia was like an unwatched pot of water left boiling on the stove. And on April 12, 1980, a group of soldiers staged a coup d'état, assassinating President William Tolbert and executing his cabinet. The Coopers and the entire Congo class were now the hunted, being imprisoned, shot, tortured, and raped. After a brutal daylight attack by a ragtag crew of soldiers, Helene, Marlene, and their mother fled Sugar Beach, and then Liberia, for America. They left Eunice behind.

A world away, Helene tried to assimilate as an American teenager. At the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill she found her passion in journalism, eventually becoming a reporter for the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. She reported from every part of the globe -- except Africa -- as Liberia descended into war-torn, third-world hell. In 2003, a near-death experience in Iraq convinced Helene that Liberia -- and Eunice -- could wait no longer. At once a deeply personal memoir and an examination of a violent and stratified country, The House at Sugar Beach tells of tragedy, forgiveness, and transcendence with unflinching honesty and a survivor's gentle humor. And at its heart, it is a story of Helene Cooper's long voyage home. [close]

Mansfield Park - Jennie

I have a confession. I really struggled with this book. I could not get into it. It is not like Jane Austen's other books that really draw you in right away. This book was a little slower and a bit more tedious. Edmund drove me a bit crazy - he was a little dense, falling in love with Miss Crawford. The sisters were horrible to Fanny, as were the aunts. And Fanny was too much of a doormat - I guess this is why I really love Elizabeth Bennett and Emma Woodhouse - they were in a better social position and could therefore stand up for themselves a bit better. I prefer a fiestier heroine.
So my review is a bit lame. I'm sorry, I truly am! I'll work harder on the next one. Speaking of which . . . . Annette, would you like to choose?

my favorites in 2008

Here is my list of my favorite books that I read in 2008 (just a few more than the target number of 10). What are yours?

The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society by Mary Anne Shaffer

The Sacred Willow: Four Generations in the Life of a Vietnamese Family: Duong Van Mai Elliott

Queen of the Road : The True Tale of 47 States, 22,000 miles, 200 Shoes, 2 Cats, 1 Poodle, a Husband, and a Bus with a Will of its Own by Doreen Orion

The Glass Castle: A Memoir, by Jeannette Walls

Jacob's Ladder: A Story of Virginia During the War by Donald McCaig

China, Inc: How the Rise of the Next Superpower Challenges America and the World, by Ted C. Fishman

The Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett

Darcy's Story by Janet Aylmer

Catfish and Mandala: A Two Wheeled Voyage through the Landscape and Memory of Vietnam by Andrew X. Pham

Garlic and Sapphires: The Secret Life of a Critic in Disguise by Ruth Reichl

Roar of the Heavens: Surviving Hurricane Camille, Stefan Bechtel

Cross Creek, Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings

Dragonfly in Amber, Diana Gabaldon.

Empire Falls by Richard Russo

Mansfield Park - from Annette

I was expecting to like Mansfield Park better than I did. I'm glad I read it. I always enjoying hearing Jane's voice but I didn't find this as satisfying as Pride, Emma, or Sense. There were times when frankly...I skimmed paragraphs....I know horrifying...but it was either that or fall asleep or worse, give up. I just thought that there was more narration and less action/dialogue than I would have liked. And i believe in some cases, she could have achieved the same effect with less narration.

Favorite characters?: Fanny, of course, Edmund (although he was amazingly dense at times!), William, and eventually Mr. Bertram (the elder) who I believe was the character who made the most "growth" of all of them.

Least favorite: Mrs. Norris...Jane gave her a wonderfully gawdawful "voice". So proper, so insipidly vacuous. ugggh.



1. Though it was very successful, Jane Austen deemed Pride and Prejudice "rather too light." Austen hoped to address more serious issues in her next novel, Mansfield Park. Many readers and critics think Mansfield Park is Austen's most serious and most profound novel. How does it differ from other Austen novels? How are her treatments of class, gender, relationships, and most especially, faith, more nuanced and more mature?

It is more serious than Pride and Prejudice, but I enjoyed P and P much more. I felt that Jane was preaching at me more in this book that its style was not just more serious but more heavy handed. . There were times when she describes interactions and conversations as opposed to relaying them...I found it much harder to pay attention frankly. I felt that she was wielding a much bigger hammer when a smaller one would do...but perhaps at the time it was written a BIG one was needed? What she has to say isn't as shocking or revelatory now than it would have been then. Perhaps that is a difference. I can't talk about the "nuance/mature" question because its been a couple of years since I read P and P.





2. Describe the social positions of the three Ward sisters: Lady Bertram, Mrs. Norris, and Mrs. Price. How did they arrive at such different circumstances and how have their circumstances presumably affect their personalities? How do the sisters treat each other and how much of this is a result of their respective status?

hmmm...they arrived where they are by their choice of who they married. And that has defined what class they inhabit, the amount of financial security, and the extent of leisure they possess. Lady Bertram has the luxury of idleness and self-centerness...it is in fact not just tolerated but encouraged at least by some. Mrs. Norris...well I believe she was a piece of work from birth...the fact she didn't have children of her own probably makes her more meddlesome than she might have been...but I don't know...she pretty much likes to tell the world how it should be. Mrs. Price...well...her life became a struggle and remains a struggle. No room for lofty thoughts, self-edification, or much else.


3. Describe the family's feelings for Fanny as the novel develops. How does the treatment of Fanny by Mrs. Norris and the Bertram sisters distinguish her from the rest of the children? How does Fanny feel about the Bertrams and how do her feelings change?



Edmund is the only one who attempts to see Fanny as Fanny...worthy of attention and care. Mrs. Norris and the sisters see her at best as a "project" or as something that should make them feel superior for being so charitable to her. They do not view her as an equal in class or in person. Fanny is at first afraid and in awe of them. I believe as time passes she sees them more clearly but she always seems to keep to "her place" as would "be proper"...but I do think she begins to see them more 3 dimensionally.



4. Mansfield Park was divided into three volumes, published separately. Why do you think Austen chose this structure, and how does it affect your reading of the book?

I wasn't aware of it...so it didn't affect the reading of the book at all. I'm not sure why it would?



5. From the moment the idea is suggested, Edmund is against the staging of a play. Why is the play seen as inappropriate by both Edmund and Fanny? Why, once it is decided upon, does Edmund accept a part in the play, even though he would appear a hypocrite? What is the significance of their choice of plays, Lover's Vows?



I must admit...from my viewpoint in the "Modern" future...it took me awhile to figure out what the fuss was all about for Edmund and Fanny. But I think it boils down to that Edmund didn't believe acting was a suitable activity for the women. I think he also felt it was too "frivilous"...but I don't think that was the main concern. Edmund taking part in the play was somewhat of a "necessary evil" in that it kept someone (was it Yates? I can't remember) who he felt completely inappropriate from acting and interacting with his sisters in the play.





6. Describe the similarities and differences between the courtship of Edmund and Mary and that of Fanny and Henry. What are the stumbling blocks in these two courtships that cause them to fail? To what extent were the trials of these courtships



Fundamentally Edmund and Fanny viewed the world (what was important, values, propriety etc) very differently than Mary and Henry. Fanny knew this all along....Edmund for whatever reasons had difficulty seeing this of Mary.



I look forward to hearing what eveyrone else has to say.